Wicipedia:Y Caffi/archif/1 - Wicipedia

# Wicipedia:Y Caffi/archif/1

### Oddi wrth Wicipedia, y gwyddoniadur rhydd.

< Wicipedia:Y Caffi | archif

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## [golygu] Sgwrs

Coffi â llaeth a dau siwgwr os gwelwch yn dda. A 'paned o de i'r wraig. ;) Dwi ddim yn 'sgrifennu'r Gymraeg yn ddigon dda i wneud llawer o erthyglau yma (achos fy mod i'n Saes!) ond pob lwc ichi bawb gyda'r prosiect... rwy'n gobeithio'r bydd yr wici cymraeg yn tyfu fel coeden mawr sydd yn fach o'r dechrau... os ydych chi eisiau rhagor o gymorthwyr, allech chi'n ofyn ar y grwp newyddion soc.culture.welsh, rwy'n tybio... Wel, hwyl fawr...

ond amser imi fynd i gael coffi GWIR ydy hi 'nawr ;-)

  T'ishio teisen gyda'ch paned? Diolch am y cyngor am s.c.w - dw i'n meddwl ddylwn ni cyfieithu pethau fel y GNU FDL cyn i ni denu llawer o bobl yma! Arwel 11:15 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Should we add a link to the English GNU FDL document until it is translated? There's nothing at the copyright page yet. Angela 20:55 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Good idea. I've created a protected copy of the English text at GNU FDL so the link at the bottom of each article will have somewhere to go, and also GNU FDL/cyfieithiad FDL for people to have a go at translating it (please don't leave it all to me!). I think we should use the copyright (hawlfraint, surely) page simply to explain the policy. Arwel 01:34 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

      Yes, I do mean hawlfraint. I used copyright as this is currently the link you get at the bottom of the screen when you edit a page, but I see that will change when the new localisation file is applied. The gnu.org website states that a notice about the tranlation being unofficial has to be added to translations of the FDL. This should be written in both languages. I have added the English version. I don't think my Welsh is quite up to translating legal documents just yet! Angela 08:16 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

## [golygu] Coffi

Sidoli's cafe in Bridgend is called "Ty Coffi", which I think is lovely. Deb 21:52 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  Maybe we should get a picture? I like the picture en: has on the Village Pump: we could have something like that. Marnanel 14:21, 3 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Enwau Brenhinoedd

Before we go too far down possibly the wrong path, I'd like to suggest that we adopt a policy to use the "pipe trick" in our links, so that we always link to the unmutated form of a name. I see that Deb did this tonight in her Augustus John article to [[Dinbych-y-Pysgod|Ddinbych-y-Pysgod]], but not to [[Dinbych]] in the Rhoda Broughton one!

  You can guess why! Deb 20:12 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

    On a similar subject, Cymru has ...un o'r gwledydd sy'n cyfansoddi'r Deyrnas Unedig. I made everything from the "'r" onwards the link to Y Deyrnas Unedig (on the grounds that the target page does begin with the definite article), but that means the link looks like it begins in the middle of a word. Do we have a house style about this? If not, should we? Marnanel 21:09, 29 Chwe 2004 (UTC)

While I'm thinking about policies, does anyone have any ideas about how we should refer to English/UK kings? Do you think we should use, say, Henry IV o Loegr or Harri IV o Loegr? I suppose we ought to use the form most people would use in the Welsh environment, but do we have a feel for which that would be? -- Arwel 22:32 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  I don't know if this helps but other languages seem to use the local version of a name.;

- Deutsch: Page title = Heinrich IV. (England)
- Français: Page title = Henri IV d'Angleterre
- Italiano: Text = Enrico IV
- Español: Links exist to Enrique VI
- ?? (?): Links exist to ??????

  Angela 03:10 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  This is such a difficult one. You may not be aware how long it took to arrive at a consensus on how to name monarchs in the English wikipedia. Cetainly it should be "Harri IV", but whether it should be "o Loegr" or (Lloegr) or something else, I really don't know. Hwyl. Deb 20:12 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  Sorry to not have followed this up -- I've been job hunting, not all that successfully :(. The reason I brought this issue up is because I'm very uncertain whether it's logical to use the localised form in most cases in cy.wiki -- for example, the lists of personal names at the back of a Welsh dictionary may say the Welsh form of "George" is "Siôr", but do you actually know of any instances where "Siôr" is used? I've certainly never come across it in real life, and I feel that in most cases Welsh speakers would tend to use the English names! Hwyl. Arwel 20:48, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  You may be right. In the English wikipedia, the rule is precisely that - to use the English form unless the non-English form is in common use. Thus we have "King Henry IV of France" but "King Louis XI of France". I think I'd have to go and look at a few Welsh-language books to see which form is most common in each case. Deb 14:06, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

    Wel, wnaeth John Davies ddefnyddio "Harri IV" ayyb. yn ei lyfr "Hanes Cymru". Faswn i'n meddwl tasai hi'n well ddefnyddio'r ffurf Cymraeg cymaint â phosib ond peidio poeni gormod amdani. BTW I hope nobody minds me replying in Welsh, but it is the Welsh Wikipedia after all. Magnus 16:37, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  Cywir iawn. Harri IV - dyna un broblem wedi esbonio. Deb 17:02, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

## [golygu] Cwestiwn

I see this wiki has jumped back into life again -- looking at the Wiki statistics, it seems to be normal behaviour for small-language Wikis to go dormant for a few months at a time! We seem to be the 23rd largest Wikipedia at the moment...

Looking through the articles, I see that we seem to have a difference of opinion as to what to call a link -- I call them a cyswllt or cysylltiadau while Deb calls them a dolen or dolennau. Shall we say that this is a North/South thing and agree a policy that North or South is OK as long as they're not mixed in the same article? (Though my copy of Y Geiriadur Cyfoes sort of implies that dolen is a chain-mail link, since the alternative translations are loop, ring, bow, handle (of cup)!). Arwel 22:11, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

  Sorry! I thought "dolen" was right, because it is the name of a newsletter I get from the Library Association in Wales. Deb 16:12, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Dolen is acceptable in my opinion - Dolen as a link in a chain. Dolen historically would have been used for a handle of a cup and comes from - dol = meadow i.e the shape of a meadow as the river meanders through the lowland. Cyswllt / Cysylltu = to connect/ to be in touch. There is no North / South Wales difference

    ...but I haven't got a word for "stub". Deb 16:31, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

      Stwbyn? The Geiriadur Cyfoes also gives bonyn but that also means a tree stump. Arwel 10:43, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

## [golygu] Ymerodron neu Ymerawdwyr?

I think it's time to throw another question to the audience!

81.129.18.129 has just paid a visit to the Main Page and fixed lots of spellings and phraseology (I wish more casual visitors would set up accounts so we could get to know them -- lord knows we could do with more fluent writers on the 'pedia!).

I've not accepted all his/her changes, as:

- Wikipedia is free as in speech, not as in beer hence it's y gwyddoniadur rhydd (free) not y gwyddoniadur rhad (cheap). I cite the Oxford Pocket Modern Welsh Dictionary to back me up!
- In links at the bottom left to Emperors of Rome and Constantinople (well, I have to write lists about something :) ) he changed Caergystennin to Caergwstennin. I've always pronounced it Caergystennin when I've had the rare occasion to speak of the place, and in Y Geiriadur Cyfoes H. Meurig Evans M.A., M.Ed. agrees with me, and moreover he gives Constantine as Cystennin. Is it a regional thing?

And while I'm on the subject of emperors, what exactly is the plural of ymherodr?? Davies gives ymerodron which is what I used; 81.129 changed them to ymerawdwyr, which the OPMWD gives as the plural. Je suis très confusé! -- which would you say is appropriate? If it's a split vote, I'll keep ymerodron rather than go to the trouble of renaming them and chasing up all the interlanguage links in other Wikipedias!

Arwel 23:47, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

## [golygu] DATGANIAD / ANNOUNCEMENT

The localisation file for Welsh has at last been translated. At the moment I'm trying to set up a copy of the database on my computer so I can try it out in private first, just in case it all goes wrong, but I'm having a little trouble with Apache. If it does work, all the links and text displayed by Wikipedia will suddenly change into something like Welsh, so don't be surprised if everything changes between one visit and another in the next few days. One difference that should happen is that the different namespaces (User:, Talk:, Wikipedia: etc) will be translated (Defnyddwr:, Sgwrs:, Wicipedia: ayyb) so it's possible that some pages will have to be moved to the new namespaces if it doesn't happen automatically. Arwel 23:47, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Rwy'n credu y dylem arddel y gair ymerwdwyr, gan fod hwnnw a'r unigol ymerwdwr yn fwy cyffredin ar lafar nac ymerodr / ymerodron, na wn i am neb sy'n eu defnyddio. Emyr

## [golygu] Egyptopedia

Hello all, I'm Aoineko from the French Wikipedia. I started a new project on Meta Wikipedia named Egyptopedia. This project goal is to coordinate Egyptology projects of all Wikipedia. If some of you are interest in, please contact me. My discussion page on fr: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_Utilisateur:Aoineko To participate in Egyptopedia: http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptopedia To discuss about Egyptopedia: http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Egyptopedia Thanks, Utilisateur:Aoineko Aoineko

## [golygu] Vandalism

OK, Welsh Wikipedia is now officially noticed! We have had our first drive-by vandalisms, when User:Angela was blanked and the Hafan was replaced by some propaganda within the space of a few hours. All now reverted, and Hafan is now a protected page, editable only by the sysops -- myself and User:Deb. Sorry for the inconvenience. -- Arwel 13:27, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  Dim cellwair! Deb 18:42, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Names of colleges

I wasn't sure whether I should render "King's College" in the entry for Caergrawnt as "Coleg Kings" or "Coleg y Brenin" (or something like that). I found some examples of people calling the King's College in London "Coleg Kings", so I went with that, but today I ran across a bunch of examples of "Coleg y Brenin", which seems more logical, so I'm changing it back to that. Can anyone confirm what standard practice should be? Marnanel 19:32, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  "Coleg y Brenin" sounds OK to me. Arwel 21:31, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    Diolch! Marnanel 18:09, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Accents in the sidebar

I had an idea. What if, when the new Wikipedia image is being put into the sidebar, some of the Welsh accents which are commonly not found on keyboards (especially ŴŵŶŷ) were put there too? Then they'd always be visible, so when you were editing you could just copy and paste. Marnanel 18:09, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  Interesting idea, though I'm not sure how we'd go about implimenting it. Perhaps easier and quicker to put them on a page we could link to off the main page? Arwel 21:05, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

    I just saw that es: does this by putting the characters in the text under the edit box [1]. Maybe we should do something similar. Marnanel 18:12, 17 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

    I've tried adding this now. What do people think? Marnanel 18:27, 17 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

    Interesting. I think I'd put them above the copyright warning rather than below them, and have at least 1 blank line between them. Do we actually need any of the diaresis-letters except for ï? I think we'd be more likely to need acute-accented letters (á and é at least). Arwel 18:37, 17 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

      OK, how's this? Marnanel 20:30, 17 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

      Looks good. Offhand, I can't think of anywhere you'd use ú, ẃ, or ý, but it doesn't do any harm to have them. Arwel 21:08, 17 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] DATGANIAD / ANNOUNCEMENT 2

As you've probably noticed its effects on Hafan, the language localisation file has now gone live. It seems to be working mostly as expected, except for the following problems which will be fixed as soon as possible:

- REDIRECT doesn't work. It should still be a synonym of AIL-CYFEIRIO (which does work). This is a pity, as when you move a page the system puts a REDIRECT in the old page!
- Changing "Wikipedia:" to "Wicipedia:" hasn't worked. When it does, you'll know because this page will turn yellow, and the article count will drop a little. Excepting "Wikipedia"/"Wicipedia" all the other name spaces are synonyms in both languages i.e. [[User:Arwel Parry]] and [[Defnyddiwr:Arwel Parry]] will both point to the same page.

If you're interested, you can see the localisation file at m:LanguageCy.php.

The only other outstanding thing for the developers to do is change the logo in the top left corner, as requested last week. When this is done we'll take the copy of the new logo off the top of Hafan (an idea gleaned from the Kurdish Wikipedia, incidentally!).

If you notice any other bugs, please report them here. Thanks -- Arwel 16:46, 29 Chwe 2004 (UTC)

  Mae ":{{msg:stub}}" yn dorredig, yn thudalennau newydd ac hen. :( Marnanel 22:13, 29 Chwe 2004 (UTC)

    {{msg:Siroedd_Cymru}} hefyd (er enghraifft, Caerdydd). Marnanel 00:25, 1 Maw 2004 (UTC)

      Diolch, rydwyf wedi gweld hwn, ac wedi gofyn am cymorth o MetaWikipedia -- gobeithiaf fydd rhywun yn ateb cyn bo hir! (ambell waith does neb yn ateb am dyddiau :( ) Arwel 00:41, 1 Maw 2004 (UTC)

      OK, a fix has been done, now we just have to wait for the developers to reapply the language file! Arwel 12:18, 2 Maw 2004 (UTC)

        TEMPORARY FIX: Until the developers get round to applying the file, the {{msg: }} problem can be overcome by entering {{MSG: }} as the problem is that the command's temporarily not case-insensitive. See Powys, for example. Arwel 11:11, 4 Maw 2004 (UTC)

    Another thing: "|thumb|" in an image isn't working, and it used to: Examples: Lerpwl, Daear. Marnanel 20:41, 2 Maw 2004 (UTC)

      Aha, |bawd| works. OK, now I know that, I can convert them. Marnanel 20:43, 2 Maw 2004 (UTC)

On Haul I have "mae e 93,000,000 milltiroedd o'r [[Daear|Ddaear]]". So why is it still not linking to Daear? *confused* Marnanel 00:51, 3 Maw 2004 (UTC)

  It's working for me. Possibly you might have an old version in your cache -- if you're using Internet Explorer, try going to Haul and click on the reload icon while holding down the Ctrl key. Arwel 03:13, 3 Maw 2004 (UTC)

    Ah, that was it-- I cleared the cache and it's fine. Lovely. Thanks! Marnanel 04:13, 3 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Stwbyn siroedd

All the Welsh counties exist now, although some are still only stubs. Marnanel 00:41, 15 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Cywirio Cymraeg

Sut mae anfon cywiriadau i dudalennau sydd wedi'u diogeli? Mae 'na lu o wallau iaith yn y dewislenni ac yn arbennig yn 'Sylwch mae pob cyfraniad ayyb...' Diolch.

Edrych ymlaen at gyfrannu mwy o gyfieithiadau wrth i'r gwyddoniadur dyfu, gwerth-chweil dros ben ynde.

  Croeso! Dim ond y 'sysops' (sef fi a Deb) sydd yn gallu olygu y mwyafrif o'r tudalennau "MediaWiki". Edrychwch at Template:All_messages i weld beth sy 'ne, a beth oedd nhw'n wreiddiol yn Saesneg! Os ydych chi'n mynd i dweud fydd rhaid i ni gwneud canoedd o olygion, fydd rhaid i ni gwneud chi yn sysop hefyd! -- Arwel 22:41, 23 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Design of country maps

We currently have two kinds of map floating around for European states:

- the orange and red ones from de:, like

- the grey and green ones from en:, like .

For myself, I think the de: ones look better. On the other hand, we have the en: ones for more countries. Should we standardise on one or the other, or just carry on ad hoc?

  I like the de: ones - they show more of Europe, for one thing! Arwel 22:49, 23 Maw 2004 (UTC)

  The maps on en: are for the whole world. If the maps from de: are used then the encylopedia will have to become more continent centered. Paul

    Mmm... has that materially affected the way de: articles have developed? We could always make a zoom box for Europe, like the one in the corner of the en: ones, and use it on all the European pages. Marnanel 22:47, 25 Maw 2004 (UTC)

      I meant that countries in other continents, will have to show that continent - e.g. Japan shown on a red map in Asia. de: only seems to have Europe red maps, so the zoom box sounds a good idea for now. Paul

## [golygu] Positioning of maps

Also, as an experiment in Gweriniaeth Iwerddon, I put the map at the top, above the flag and arms, instead of in the middle of the text as is standard on en:. I think this is actually more useful: people presumably want to know where a country is before they want to know what its flag looks like. What do you think? Marnanel 21:10, 23 Maw 2004 (UTC)

  Dwi'n cytuno (gobeithio dy fod ti'n deall fy Nghymraeg!) -- dwi wedi gwneud rhywbeth tebyg gyda tudalen Norwy -- mae'r map yn y tabl, nid ar ben. Dwi'n credu fod hyn yn edrych braidd yn fwy pert. O, a cario mlaen gyda'r delweddau o de: yn bendant. Gareth Wyn 21:30, 23 Maw 2004 (UTC)

  I like the Irish page too. A croeso i chi, Gareth. Dwi'n meddwl mae'r mapiau yn edrych yn well heb y bocs... -- Arwel 22:49, 23 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Perl script for sorting

I've written a simple Perl script to sort a file according to the Welsh alphabet (so, for example, Caerfyrddin comes before Caerffili). I think it would be useful for lots of people here. I've put it at http://marnanel.org/welsh-sort if anyone wants a copy. Suggestions welcome. Marnanel 19:26, 26 Maw 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Statistics

From Multilingual statistics, the Welsh Wikipedia is the 33rd most popular Wikipedia. Not bad, but at least were beating Occitan. Paul

  And we're miles ahead of our Irish neighbours! Arwel 20:55, 26 Maw 2004 (UTC)

See latest update -- between 19 December 2003 and 1 April 2004 we were the 8th fastest-growing Wikipedia by percentage (227%). Goodness knows how the Basque Wikipedia grew by 5556% ! The popularity stats have been recalculated and we're now the 36th biggest Wikipedia (out of 79). -- Arwel 00:05, 3 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

Database statistics tables and charts.

## [golygu] Google

We're the second hit on Google for cymraeg[2]! Marnanel 08:08, 4 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

## [golygu] Small language stats

Here's an interesting email from the "misc" mailing list...

> Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc
> Subject: Re: Starting a new language: Upper Sorbian
> From: Andre Engels <engelsAG-zqRNUXuvxA0b1SvskN2V4Q@public.gmane.org>
> Date: 5 April 2004 09:54:00
> Reply-To: 520042374336-0001-dkJcROb1HuYb1SvskN2V4Q@public.gmane.org, wikipedia-l-T31ubCBy5U6GglJvpFV4uA@public.gmane.org
> "Peter Gervai" <grin-E6qXFbuZ1YVeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> schrieb:
> > As a sidenote: Hungary have a population of 10,000,000 people (with speakers
> > approximated around 15,000,000) and we have around 5 permanent active
> > editors. (Though I expect that raise soon since there going to be some press
> > activity.)
> >
> > I always wondered what can a wikipedia do supporting a language of, say,
> > 100,000 people. Half an editor?
> >
> > I haven't checked what's about wikipedias with small speaker base after 3-6
> > months, what activity they possess. I wonder.
> It varies, but then, it also varies for some much larger languages (Marathi with 65 million speakers has only 4 pages, for example). There's four Wikipedia languages with less than 100.000 speakers, none of them getting anywhere serious, however the fifth smallest language (Icelandic, 250.000 speakers) managed to get to a number of 9 Wikipedians (with 10 or more logged-in edits), and is seriously trying to make something.
> Wikipedia languages with less than 1 million speakers:
> speakers Wikipedians pages
> Manx 250 0 1
> Nauruan 7,000 2 16
> Maori 50,000 0 8
> Scottish 60,000 1 14
> Icelandic 250,000 9 209
> Irish 260,000 3 62
> Corsican 340,000 0 14
> Occitan 350,000 7 493
> Welsh 600,000 9 954
> Basque 600,000 5 2319
> Frisian 700,000 9 881
> Andre Engels

## [golygu] Mil o erthyglau

Heddiw mae mil o erthyglau gyda ni! Marnanel 23:05, 8 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

  Campus! Deb 17:17, 11 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

Wedi dod o "http://cy.wikipedia.org../../../y/_/c/Wicipedia%7EY_Caffi_archif_1_0814.html"

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