Plé:Cúige Chonnacht - Vicipéid

# Plé:Cúige Chonnacht

### Ón Vicipéid, an chiclipéid shaor.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé seo ceart. Cúige Chonnachta a bhí i gcónaí ann. Ach Connacht mar ainm aonair. An bhféadfá é a athrú ar ais?Meabhar 22:52, 11 Lún 2004 (UTC)

No such thing as Cúige Chonnacht or Cúige Connacht. Speak English if you do not accept this. Check Dineen, not de Bhaldraithe, or modern dictionaries. Meabhar. Lunasa 22, 2004, 00:37 (UTC).

  Ba cheart dúinn an Caighdeán a úsáid. Ó Dónaill 1977: Cúige Chonnacht, Laighean, Mumhan, Uladh. Maidir le do litir Séamas Daltún, Oifig an tSoláthair 1970 lch 81. Cúige Chonnacht, mar aon le litriú cheart do sna contaethe. Gaisitéar na hÉireann An tSuirbhéireacht Ordanáis, Oifig an tSoláthair ©Rialtas na hÉireann 1989, lch 172: Cúige Chonnacht. Atlas a Dó do Scoileanna na hÉireann, Oifig an tSoláthair 1978, lch 4: Cúige Chonnacht.

  Fuair mé níos mó eolais ón Ollamh Nicholas Williams (COBÁC) agus scríobhfaidh mé síos an stuif sin níos déanaí inniú. Evertype 11:05, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  Chuir mé freagair don phointe seo ag Plé:Cúige_Chonnacht. Evertype

    Agus Laighin, ach Cúige Laighean. Sin atá ag Ua Duinnín, agus is aige atá an cheart. Cé tá ag leagadh mo Chúige Chonnachta? - fch Dineen freisin ar seo. --Meabhar. Lunasa 22, 2004, 00:42 (UTC).

  Ní ionann foclóir an Duinnínigh agus an Caighdeán Oifigiúil. The Vicipéid is not a forum for rejection of the standard orthography of Irish. If it is to be respected, and respectable, and an eventual resource for schools in Ireland, it must be Caighdeánach. Evertype 10:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    Tá ceart agus mícheart i ngach ní. Níl aon dabht ach go bhfuil dearmaid sa "chaighdeán oifigiúil", agus aon duine a bhacann le litríocht na nuaGhaeilge a léamh, feicfidh sé nach "Gaeilge sa Chaighdeán" atá ann. Ta ómós áirithe againn go léir don ghá do chaigheánú, ach ní ionann sin is a rá go gcaithfear gach "regionalism" a mharú. Tuigimid a chéile go maith, don chuid is mó, agus aon duine a bhacann Dineen a léamh, feicfidh sé gur ann atá togha na Gaeilge. Agus muna bhfuil Dineen agaibh, bheadh Kenny's i nGaillimh nó a leithéid sásta sean-chóip a aimsiú. Ach sé "Cúige Chonnachta" an fhoirm cheart. Abair "Cúige Chonnacht" le h-aon Ghael aniar a bhfuil líofacht aige, agus feicfidh tú nach Dineen amháin a choinníonn an deireadh -a sa ghineadach. Tá an ghineadach fós i nGaeilge, agus cé go ndealraíonn sé gur san iolra atá sé, is é Cúige Chonnachta an fhoirm cheart - is cainteoir dúchas mé, a shíolraíonn ón gcúige!

    Cá bhfuair tú an quote sin atá thuas? Ta súil agam nach bhfuil tú ag rá nach féidir Vicipéid a scríobh le focla nach n-aontaíonn de Bhaldraithe leo, nó nach mbacann sé leo. Níl gá páistí scoile a 'chosaint' ó Ghaeilge cheart, nó ó raidhse foirmeacha atá ceart iontu féin. Ní gá na "language police" a bheidh ag ceartú foirmeacha chearta. B'fhearr dúinn cuid den droch Ghaeilge atá fós ar an suíomh a ghlanach suas ina áit!
    Le measMeabhar 18:00, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Déanfad níos mó taighde freisin! Ach d'fhéachfainn ar fhoinsí teangan, seachas Atlas nó Gaiseatéar, de ghnáth ar fhocal mar seo. Ach feicfimid! Le meas. Meabhar 17:04, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC).

Bhuel, chuireas glaoch ag m'athair, ar chainteoir dúchas as Árainn é, agus atá ag léamh na Gaeilge le hos cionn 70 blian. Agus is "Cúige Chonnachta" a bhí aige gan stad ar bith, agus is é a fuair sé óna chuid foinsí ar fad. Agus bhí an fhoirm chéanna ag mo mháthair, atá ag labhairt Gaeilge ó rugadh í. Agus mholfainn daoibh féachaint a thabhairt ar Dineen arís. Ní Bíobla é Ó Dónaill, agus déarfaidh aon fhoclóirí leat, ar fiú faic é, go mbíonn dearmaid agus gá le h-athraithe i rud chomh mór le foclóir teangan ar fad, gan trácht ar fhoclóirí teicneolaíochta. Le meas. Meabhar 19:05, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  I spoke with Nicholas Williams today. The facts of the matter are complex. They are these: In good Irish, to speak of the provinces, it is best always to use the long forms, with "Cúige". The shorter forms are more or less influenced by the English habits. Be that as it may, the grammatical forms are these:

  Munster is the only actual placename in the lot. The others refer to groups of people. (Interestingly, Ormond and Thomond and some other place all use this original *momo- stem which we find here.). When used without the province prefix, the correct form is An Mhumhain. When used with the province prefix, the correct form is Cúige Mumhan. These are the forms found on the maps of Atlas a Dó do Scoileanna na hÉireann, which uses the first form on the maps pp 6-9, and the full form on the map on p 4.

  Ulster and the other two refer to collections of people. One used to say Bhí sé in Ultaibh with a dative plural, to mean "He was among the Ulstermen". The forms used are plurals in both cases: Ulaidh with the nominative plural is used alone, and Cúige Uladh is found with the genitive plural suffixed to the province: "province of the Ulstermen". These again are the forms used in the Atlas.

  Leinster is also refers to a collection of people. One could also sa Bhí sé i Laighnibh according to Nicholas (who wrote on Leinster Irish in Stair na Gaeilge). Again, the forms used are plurals in both cases: Laighin with the nominative plural is used alone (though this isn't very authentic Irish and this form would have died out long ago according to Nicholas), and Cúige Laighean is found with the genitive plural suffixed to the province: "province of the Leinstermen". These also are the forms used in the Atlas. (The Lleyn peninsula in Wales refers to Laighin.) I was incorrect in thinking that Laighin was an error; for that I apologize, though in my defense of modern materials only the Atlas gives the form without the Cúige attached.

  This brings us to your native province. Native speaker or not, you (and your father) are mistaken, I am afraid, according to Dr Williams, with regard to the historically correct terms. The same pattern as for Ulster and Leinster is followed here. One used to say Bhí sé i gConnachtaibh -- and Dineen does give this -- to mean amongst the Connaughtmen. And once again, the forms used are plurals in both cases: Connachta with the nominative plural is used alone, and Cúige Chonnacht is found with the genitive plural suffixed to the province: "province of the Connaughtmen". You have misread Dineen: He does not give *Cúige Chonnachta: He states Cúige Ch. gpl.) and in the lexicographical context the abbreviated Ch. must be interpreted as an abbreviation of the headword. Again, the Atlas gives both Connachta and Cúige Chonnacht, just as Dr Williams said it should (he spent considerable time discussing the finer points of this to me today). There are always variations in Irish dialects, as you have pointed out from Árann; while Dineen notes "Connachta" as a nominative singular variant, as you seem to have it, the Caighdeán would be Connachta and Cúige Chonnacht. (I was mistaken in considering Connacht to be the correct nominative because I was unaware that it was meant to be a plural).

  I very much hope that we can settle on these eight forms (one nominative and genitive singular, and three nominative and genitive plurals) as the correct terms to use in the Irish Wikipedia. Evertype 21:31, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    Bhí sé mar intinn agam na leagan gan Cúige (go simplí Connachta, Laighin srl, ach muna bhfuil seo bunaithe ar an teanga líofa níl seo an réiteach ceart. B'fhéidir go dtiocfaimid le réiteach eile: sin an leagan Caighdeánach a húsáid in ainm an ailt, agus na leagain eile a hainmniú sa chéad líne. -- Gabriel Beecham 22:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

      Dúirt Nicholas Williams go bhfuil sé níos fearr an focail "Cúige" a choinneáil. Éist, a Ghabriel, rinne mé an taighde: Tá a bhfuil in Atlas a Dó díreach mar a mhol an tOllamh Williams. Glacamar leis sin, in ainm Dé. Evertype 09:17, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

      De réir I.R. Uimh 133/1975: an tOrdú Logainmneacha (Foirmeacha Gaeilge (Uimh. 1) (Posstbhailte) 1975, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI133Y1975.html, is "Cúige Chonnacht" ainm an Chúige.

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