Disputatio:Fragor Maximus - Vicipaedia

# Disputatio:Fragor Maximus

### E Vicipaedia

Appelationes paucae hic in dubio sunt. Me promitto id emendare. Some of the terms here are dubious. I assure you I am working on it.--Ioshus Rocchio 04:10, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

## [recensere] de nomine (disputata movi)

    Haec disputata hic mota, de pagina disputationis Usorum Ioshi et Iustini.

Know what they call the big bang? Romance languages don't help. They're all Il Big Bang, or La teoria del Big Bang, or the like...--Ioshus Rocchio 04:24, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

  I'm in Lexington KY for the Conventiculum (usor:Sinister Petrus is also here) right now. Stephanus doubtless has an opinion on this, so I'll see what he says. Ideally I'd want to ask David as well, but it is unclear if he plans to show up or not. --Iustinus 05:31, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
    Nice, hope y'all have fun. Thanks for making the inquiry.--Ioshus Rocchio 06:05, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
  I asked Stephanus. He said he hasn't come up with anything official (it apparently never came up when he was writing De Philosophia Quantali et Institutione Publica), but he suggests Fragor Maximus or Fragor Primaevus/Primigenius--this might make it clearer what giant shattering we're talking about. Possibly we could combine them into Fragor Maximus Primigenius. Of course there are other words for "bang" but given the type of explosion we have in mind here, fragor kind of makes sense. --Iustinus 17:38, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
    I hadn't thought to use a superlative. Let's go with Fragor Maximus, as it captures some of the simplicity, and irony of the english term. I think the Calvin and Hobbes quote goes something like this:

    C:You find it strange that scientists can imagine something as farfetched as all the matter in the universe exploding out of something the size of of the head of a pin, but can't imagine a more creative name than the big bang?!
    H:Well, what would you call it?
    C:THE HORRENDOUS SPACE KABLOOEY!

    Thanks for asking.--Ioshus Rocchio 00:23, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

      Meaning 'a breaking to pieces', this fragor could work; however, L&S say the sense of 'crash, noise, din' (i.e., 'bang') is poetic and post-Augustan, so Fragor Maximus presumably = 'the biggest shattering'. Ovid uses fragor for 'thunder':
        Fit fragor, et densi funduntur ab aethere nimbi.
      Don't adjectives of size usually precede? So: Maximus Fragor. Too bad we don't have an easy way of keeping the alliteration, as in, say, Fragor Firmamenti. IacobusAmor 13:50, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
    I'm hard pressed to think of a more fitting word than Fragor...clamor, sonitus, strepitus...none of those work at all. And was it not called the circus maximus, not the maximus circus? What do you think?--Ioshus Rocchio 13:57, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

      I don't think! Others have done our thinking for us! Bradley's Arnold says (Intro. #85, macrons omitted here):
        Adjectives, when used as attributes (see 10), are oftener than not placed after the noun with which they agree; but demonstratives and interrogative pronouns, numerals, and adjectives denoting size or quantity come before the noun they qualify.
          Vir bonus; civitas opulentissima; pater meus; but: haec opinio; permulti homines.
      Allen & Greenough (#598b) say: "Numeral adjectives, adjectives of quantity, demonstrative, relative, and interrogative pronouns and adverbs, tend to precede the word or words to which they belong." A quick check of the examples in L&S shows that forms of magnus usually do precede the nouns they qualify. IacobusAmor 14:27, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

    Can't find a note in N&H, or Bennett. Let me get back to you. I'm still curious why it would be called Circus Maximus.--Ioshus Rocchio 15:30, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

      Maybe most Latin-steakers would have called it merely the Circus most of the time, and the Maximus part was some sort of contemporary "spin." Didn't they usually call the Campus Martius merely the Campus? IacobusAmor 15:43, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

## [recensere] Big Bang in German --> profragor

German has another concept for naming this thing. It is called de:Urknall. It has two parts: Ur-knall like Ur-großvater where Großvater = avus and Knall = bang, so Ur-großvater = pro-avus = great-grandfather. Litterally it would be profragor. ;-) --Roland2 22:07, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

  Sincerius ergo fragor primordialis? usor:Bohmhammel, 22 h 24 min, 15 Kal. Sext. 2006
    This is kind of like Fragor Primaevus above. I don't think latin is this flexible, but certainly sounds like a construction that Greek might entertain.--Ioshus Rocchio 22:27, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

      You could boost it a notch with Permaximus Fragor. IacobusAmor 22:47, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
        That certainly would be permissible. But again, I think the briefest thing we can settle upon is the best, refer to the Calvin and Hobbes comment above.--Ioshus Rocchio 22:52, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

        My intervention: Vel etiam fragor primus, fragor princeps. Quid fragor Graeco sermone dicere vult? Proto-? Alex1011 22:54, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
          Check this: "eruption" at Perseus. I'm thinking certainly something with ek, maybe Protoekphuma or protoekthusis...bang unfortunately is not in there...--Ioshus Rocchio 23:32, 18 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

## [recensere] crepitus primigenius

...habet Brennus Regan in Voce Latina, 2006, 166. Langenscheidt autem habet "crepitus ventris". --Alex1011 23:36, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

  'Original rattling'? Even so, that could be a stretch. According to my dictionaries, crepitus basically = 'rattling'; also 'clashing, clapping, clattering, creaking, finger-snapping, flashing, gnashing, jerking, jingling, pattering, rustling', none of which evokes the idea of a huge explosion. (It also means 'audible fart'—a connection that would amuse teenage minds.) The English 'Big Bang' doesn't say anything about originality: it speaks of size & explosiveness. Nevertheless, the idea of clapping may be suggestive: after all, the English word explode comes from the Latin for 'drive off the stage with clapping, hissing, stamping'. IacobusAmor 00:58, 21 Decembris 2006 (UTC)
    Well, crepitus is used for just about anything, really. Consider digitis concrepare "to snap one's fingers" (Plautus). L&S also cites Prud. στεφ. 11, 56: virgarum concrepitat fragor, which shows that fragor and crepitus might not be so different from each other afterall. --Iustinus 02:38, 21 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

## [recensere] Fere non fuit fragor maximus

Ah, ah, fere non fuit fragor maximus, sed Reversio vel Reversatio (Anglice: turnaround): http://physorg.com/news89399974.html. Item huc accedit quod nostra res debet commemorare Fissuram Maximam (Anglice: Big Rip). IacobusAmor 15:41, 31 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Receptum de "http://la.wikipedia.org../../../f/r/a/Disputatio%7EFragor_Maximus_3832.html"

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