Disputatio:Organum tubulatum - Vicipaedia

# Disputatio:Organum tubulatum

### E Vicipaedia

## [recensere] Pagina disambiguationis nobis opus est.

Vide propositum stipulae exordium:

  Organum est primum musicae polyphonicae Europaeae genus, inventio saeculi IX. Qui organum composuerunt "organistae" appellabantur. . . .

Ergo, pagina disambiguationis nobis opus est: organum (genus musicae) + organum (instrumentum musicale). Fortasse similiter: organista (qui organum componit) + organista (qui organum modulatur). IacobusAmor 03:31, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

    Nihilominus, organista non est qui componit organum. Compositor componit, organista sonat.GiovaneScuola2006 03:57, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
      Organista fuit qui composuit organum, genus musicae (sicut discantus, motetus, opera, symphonia, etc.). Vide "the English Anonymous," Coussemaker I, 342 (saeculo XIII): Magister Leoninus fuit "optimus organista" (Anglice: 'the greatest composer of organum'), et Magister Perotinus Magnus fuit "optimus discantor et melior quam Leoninus" ('the greatest composer of discant, and greater than Leoninus'). Leoninus ipse Magnum Librum Organi, collectionem organorum duplorum, insigniter confecit. Vide quoque Organum (genus musicae). IacobusAmor 13:40, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Instrumenti nomen

Cur est huius instrumenti nomen organum tubulatum (Anglice: 'organ hollowed out like a pipe' vel fortasse 'piped organ') pro organum de tubis (Anglice: 'pipe organ, organ with pipes, organ made of pipes')? IacobusAmor 11:28, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

  Vaticani utitur "organo tubulato", cf. "Organum tubulatum in Ecclesia Latina magno in honore habeatur" (Paulus VI, Sacrosanctum Concilium, 1963). Non reinvenire rotam! Salve. LionhardusCiampa 11:43, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
    Consentio! Saeculo XVIII, nostra rota erat organa pneumatica vel organa musica (secundum Ainsworth's Dictionary), vel fortasse solum verbum organa vel organum. Videtur Vaticanum ipsum reinvenisse rotam! IacobusAmor 12:48, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
      Multas gratias ago tibi. Reapse, ego praeferam organum tubis sive alia. Bach utitur solo verbo "organo" sine alia verba. Nihilominus, differo ad Vaticanum. LionhardusCiampa 12:26, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

  Lionhardus, if you have a Bach quote in Latin, I would love to see it. As for the other points, let's recall that organum really just means "implement." In the context of Bach's writing it would be perfectly clear what kind of organum he meant, but for our article we want something more specific. Organum musicum doesn't do the trick in our case, because we have to cover all of history, and the Romans had at least two other forms of musical organ, namely organum hydraulicum and organum pneumaticum. So given the later form organum pneumaticum won't cut it either.
    —I don't take your point here: the modern pipe organ is a pneumatic organ, and is sometimes called that. IacobusAmor 17:18, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC) —
      As I said in our private correspondence, I may have to defer to you on this one: it's really a question of definition. --Iustinus 17:37, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
  Iacobus, the fact that your beloved 18th century dictionary gives plurale tantum forms is interesting though.
  Now, is there something wrong with tubulatum? LSJ cite two passages, one by each of the Plinies supporting the usage Iacobus insists on. So there is something to be said for that. However, the use of X-atum to mean "equipped with an X" is very widespread and productive. I think it's a little literal-minded to insist on the strict dictionary definition, especially when we have only two loci classici. In any case, even if we wish to spurn the Vatican in favor of the LSJ on this question, organum de tubulis and organum tubulis are really questionable formations. It is possible to use prepositional phrases or bare ablatives of description as modifiers in a noun clause, but this is strongly frowned upon.
    —I was patterning it on examples of the Ablative of Source and Material in A&G #403.2: factum de cautibus antrum 'a cave formed of rocks' (Ovid) and templum de marmore ponam 'I'll build a temple of marble' (Vergil). IacobusAmor 17:18, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC) &dash;
      But neither of those examples has a "dangling ablative": in both cases the de X phrase is dependant on a verb or participle. In other words you can say Templum de marmore ponam, but just saying Ecce! Templum de marmore! is kinda gauche. --Iustinus 17:27, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
  Much better would be organum tubulis instructum or the like. And then you're already getting into wordy Vatican-like coinages. Tubulatum seems much more Latin to me.
  --Iustinus 16:44, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

For reference, the article Organum in the Harvard Dictionary of Music (1969 edition) begins:

  (1) Latin for organ. In early writings (church fathers, lives of Saints) the term "organum" has as great a variety of meanings as the English word "organ" (part of the body, medium, etc.). Failure to recognize this fact has led to unwarranted conclusions concerning the use of the organ in the 6th to 8th centuries. St. Augustine (A.D. 354–430) says in two different passages that "organum is the name for all musical instruments," adding in one, "not only for that which is big and is inflated by bellows," and in the other, "although it has become customary to use it properly for those which are inflated by bellows" [see W. Apel, in Speculum xxiii, 201].
  (2) Name for the earliest types of polyphonic music, from the 9th century ("Musica enchiriadis") to c. 1200 (Leoninus, Perotinus). The question of a connection between organum = polyphony and organum = organ is usually answered in the negative. . . .

So, as I've suggested, Vicipaedia needs (at least) two articles here, possibly Organum (instrumentum musicum) and Organum (genus musicae). IacobusAmor 17:31, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Receptum de "http://la.wikipedia.org../../../o/r/g/Disputatio%7EOrganum_tubulatum_0551.html"

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