Disputatio:Britanniarum Regnum - Vicipaedia

# Disputatio:Britanniarum Regnum

### E Vicipaedia

Iustinius: Suavius legitur. Gratias.

Me iuvat, et gratias tibi ;) -Iustinus

### [recensere] Unitum =?

What's this Unitum? Ainsworth's Dictionary (square brackets in original) has:

  To unite [as two kingdoms do] In unam ditionem coire.

and

  United, Conjunctus, coalescens.

None of the (three) Classical Latin dictionaries I've checked has an adjective unitus, -a, -um, and only one has the verb unio, -ire (meaning 'join together', with the past participle unitus, -a, -um), marked "post-Augustan" and "very rare," yet it abounds in Vicipaedia. Is it a twenty-first-century calque from the Italian? Should it be embraced or suppressed? An appropriate thing to do here, for anybody who has the time, would be to check early eighteenth-century British sources to find out how contemporaries of the Act of Union (1707) rendered United Kingdom in Latin. It might be easy for someone with time and a good library (desiderata that, alas, exclude me), because minutes of debates in Parliament were kept in Latin well into the nineteenth century. IacobusAmor 12:35, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

    The closest I've seen to an older term matching this was Unio Regnorum and even that I'm not entirely sure was referring to this. In an age of less pedantry, Magna Britannia was used more often, as far as I can tell. —Myces Tiberinus 21:38, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

## [recensere] Before the Act of Union

"United Kingdom" and "Regnum Unitum" have no true meaning before 1707, though admittedly England and Scotland shared a monarch from 1603 on. I moved the history section, all of which (except the reference to the Iraq War!) belonged to Britannia (which is where I put it) or to Britannia (Roman province) (where it may be duplicated?). I removed the monarchs before 1603, and put in the later ones who were left out; the famous people from earlier centuries also ought to be removed, I think. Shakespeare is not a United Kingdom playwright. Do others agree? A nd rew D alby 17:33, 30 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Shakespeare was an English playright (but he was still alive when King James VI/I came to the throne.) Jake95 21:07, 31 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

  Well, that's true! But the crucial date, anyway, is 1707. I doubtfully retained the list of kings between 1603 and 1707, since England and Scotland had the same monarch during that period, but it might be more accurate to remove them. A nd rew D alby 14:27, 1 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
    The crucial date would be 1800. The Acts of Union 1707 joined the kingdoms of England and Scotland together, but the new country was simply called the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was not until the Act of Union 1800, when Ireland joined the party, that the United Kingdom was created. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 19:52, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
      Video Vicipaediam iam habere haec verba: "Unum aliorum muniorum magnorum temporis Henrici erat Act of Union (Latine: "Conductionis Lex"), decretum 1536 cives Cambriae reddens etiam cives Angliae." IacobusAmor 20:04, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
        Ah, but as certain English people will tell you under their breath, Wales doesn't count.
        I readily admit to being an imperfect constitutional historian, and no doubt LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs has the right of it. It was from 1800 (roughly) that kings began to claim on their coinage to be Rex Britanniarum: Britanniae, "the Britains" was I suppose a sort of Latin equivalent to "United Kingdom". A nd rew D alby 20:23, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
      I see that while I was drafting this little message, the same conclusion has been reached below. Great minds think alike. A nd rew D alby 20:25, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
        And when Her Majesty tells us what Latin style she wants, who are we to disobey? Before Ireland got involved, though, we might find that the monarch's title was merely Rex Britanniae ; in other words, I'd guess the "Britains" to be: (1) the England–Wales–Scotland thingy and (2) Ireland. IacobusAmor 20:38, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
      Yes, exactly. See the regal titles listed at Index Regum Regni Uniti (which I have just edited to reflect your discovery below). A nd rew D alby 20:54, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

On the internet, we also find this (boldface added):

<<Proclamation as to the Royal Style and Titles and as to the Ensigns Armorial, Standard, and Union Jack. London, January 1, 1801. (The Times, January 3, 1801, page 4d. See also Statutory Rules & Orders and Statutory Instruments Revised to Dec 31, 1948, II 789)

By the King. — A Proclamation.

Declaring His Majesty's Pleasure concerning the Royal Stile and Titles appertaining to the Imperial Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and its Dependencies, and also the Ensigns Armorial, Flags, and Banners thereof.

George R.

Whereas by the first article of the articles of Union of Great Britain and Ireland, ratified and confirmed by two Acts of Parliament, the one passed in the Parliament of Great Britain, and the other in the Parliament of Ireland, and respectively intituled, An Act for the Union of Great Britain and Ireland, it was declared, That the said Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland should upon this day, being the 1st day of January, in the year of our Lord 1801, for ever after be united in One Kingdom, by the name of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; and that the Royal Stile and Titles appertaining to the Imperial Crown of the said United Kingdom and its Dependencies, and also the Ensigns Armorial, Flags, and Banners thereof, should be such as we, by our Royal Proclamation, under the Great Seal of the said United Kingdom, should appoint; we have thought fit, by and with the advice of our Privy Council, to appoint and declare that our Royal Stile and Titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken, and used, as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the Latin tongue by these words:—"GEORGIUS TERTIUS, Dei Gratia, Britanniarum Rex, Fidei Defensor:" GEORGE the THIRD, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith.">> IacobusAmor 21:05, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Infobox

In the infobox, what is "religio personus" supposed to mean? A nd rew D alby 14:27, 1 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Many of the terms found in infoboxes throughout the wiki, alas, have less than perfect, less even than comprehensible Latin. This "Latin" repeatedly uses "personus -a -um" to mean "of the people", which is patently absurd. But all that work was difficult to undo, so it's still floating around in a lot of places. --Iustinus 16:50, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Problem solved: 'United Kingdom' = Britanniae

Vide:

<<ROYAL PROCLAMATION reciting the altered Style and Titles of the Crown. London, 29th May, 1953 (British and Foreign State Papers, vol. 160, p. 2; citing the Eleventh Supplement of The London Gazette of 26th May, 1953.) BY THE QUEEN

A PROCLAMATION

ELIZABETH R.

WHEREAS there has been passed in the present Session of Parliament the Royal Titles Act, 1953 [1 & 2 Eliz. 2. c.9], which Act recites that it is expedient that the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown should be altered so as to reflect more clearly the existing constitutional relations of the members of the Commonwealth to one another and their recognition of the Crown as the symbol of their free association and of the Sovereign as the Head of the Commonwealth. . . .

We have thought fit, and We do hereby appoint and declare, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council, that so far as conveniently may be, on all occasions and in all instruments wherein Our style and titles are used in relation to all or any one or more of the following, that is to say, the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Our Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, Our style and titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken and used as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the English tongue by these words:—

"Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith ".

And in the Latin tongue by these words:—

"Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor ".

Given at Our Court at Buckingham Palace, this twenty-eighth day of May, in the year of our Lord One thousand nine hundred and fifty-three, and in the Second year of Our Reign.>>

So what's this Regnum Unitum business?! IacobusAmor 20:13, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Thank goodness! Shall we move it, then? A nd rew D alby 20:29, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
    I confess that referring to the country Britanniae (outside of titulary formulas) sounds rather awkward. But what are you going to do? It's right there in black and white. --Iustinus 20:34, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Is it just my poor Latin, or does regina Britanniarum refer to the people (queen of the British) rather than the country? LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 21:55, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  No, that would be regina Britannorum (or, if they all turn female, Britannarum). A nd rew D alby 22:11, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
    If they all turn female? Hmmm, that brings to mind certain national stereotypes :P
    There's also Brito -nis, but I suppose that might be reserved for the ancient people. --Iustinus 22:32, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
  Just to make sure: United Kingdon is then Britannia regnaque cetera (videlicet reginae) --Alex1011 08:01, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
    No, that's not right (it's complicated, isn't it?) The nominative of the phrase you are citing is "Britanniae regnaque sua cetera" (the Britains and her other realms). That's supposed to hint at the other Commonwealth countries (not all of them, because some are republics) of which she is also queen. "Britanniae" means the United Kingdom; "regna cetera" covers Canada, Australia, New Zealand ...
    On coins, as a shorter alternative to "Britanniarum regnorumque suorum ceterorum", they instead used the phrase "Britanniarum omnium" (of all the Britains). This phrase was introduced on coins around 1900, around the time various former Imperial possessions were becoming Dominions. Between 1800 and about 1900, they just said "Britanniarum" (of the Britains), which meant of the United Kingdom. A nd rew D alby 10:21, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
      If United Kingdom is Britanniae that might explain why in other countries the term Great Britain is used, sort of a translation from Latin. (Little Britain being Bretagne or Brittany) On the license plate you also find GB, not UK. --Alex1011 13:05, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
        OK, but the two have never been coterminous, and they still aren't. Northern Ireland is in UK, but it isn't in GB. Great Britain is a translation for Britannia (sg.), not for Britanniae (pl.). A nd rew D alby 13:32, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
        I suggest, since we have long thought that "Regnum Unitum" is a faulty form, and "Britanniae" is too close to "Britannia" to make a good entry name, our Wikipedia equivalent for United Kingdom should be "Regnum Britanniarum". Any other opinions? A nd rew D alby 13:49, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
          That is an excellent compromise.
          I am almost certain that Magna Britania occurs in Latin (besides in Egger). I'm not saying that should be the article title, I'm just saying "Great Britain" is not a translation of Britaniae. --Iustinus 14:44, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
        I agree. Magna Britannia is really synonymous with Britannia.
        As Alex says above, the Magna is added to distinguish Britain from Britanny. The adjective is essential in French (Grande-Bretagne as opposed to Bretagne); it is optional in English and Latin (in the latter, Britanny is called Armorica anyway). A nd rew D alby 15:58, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

On another note: in none of the Latin styles we've cited so far is Ireland mentioned by name. Currently, in the respective articles, we seem to be claiming that the name Hibernia only applies to Ancient Ireland, and the modern country is Irlandia. I have no doubt I could find attestations of Irlandia, but is that really the official name? Honestly I kind of doubt it. (Replies should probably go to Disputatio:Irlandia --Iustinus 14:57, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Rei titulus nunc est: "Regnum Unitum Britanniae Magnae et Hiberniae Septentrionalis." Nomen recte est solum "Regnum Britanniarum," non? IacobusAmor 16:01, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Sic. Quo brevior, eo melior? A nd rew D alby 18:11, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Another problem solved: 'Commonwealth of Nations' = Consortio Populorum

Incidentally, the queen's proclamation posted above gives us the correct Latin for 'Commonwealth of Nations': Consortio Populorum. IacobusAmor 20:20, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] United Nations?

The queen's proclamation above may imply that the best Latin for the United Nations should include a form of Populi (and not of Nationes), perhaps Populi Consociati or Populi Socii. Such a form would have the advantage of including those entities that aren't formally "nations" but still have some sort of official UN recognition and participate in various UN-sponsored activities. IacobusAmor 15:30, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Moving discussion to Disputatio:Nationes Unitae --Iustinus 16:30, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Egger

Bizarrely, Egger doesn't seem to give an equivalent for "United Kingdom" anywhere, apparently feeling it sufficient to have an entry for Gran Bretagna (which he gives as Magna Bitannia [sic]). In entries for placenames in England, he generally uses glosses like urbs Britanniae (yet, for Scotland he says Scotiae!) Quite sloppy, I'm afraid. --Iustinus 20:32, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] problem unsolved

That leaves the question "reunification of Germany" and "European Union". --Alex1011 21:00, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  For the latter, I'd suggest Ditio Europaea, but we mustn't use it, quia verbum ditio numquam invenitur in recto casu, nisi in compositione. IacobusAmor 21:12, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
    Well, at least one official document gives the name as RES PUBLICA EVROPAEA [sic] (The "STATVS" in that inscription of course means "constitution", but it caused a good deal of controversy among people who thought it meant "state" and freaked out that it was in the singular). There has also been a LOT of discussion of the union in neo-Latin circles (e.g. see the sources cited at Euro#Fontes), so it should be easy to find citations in less official discourse. --Iustinus 22:35, 11 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
  Gratias ago. (That means "Unio Europaea" should also be moved.) What about "United Nations"? "Consortio nationum"? --Alex1011 12:49, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
      Incidentally, "Unio Europaea" could easily be misunderstood as European pearl or (more probably) European onion. A nd rew D alby 13:02, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Moving discussion to Disputatio:Unio Europaea --Iustinus 17:03, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Consortio Populorum

I started Consortio Populorum. --Alex1011 13:39, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Yay! Gratias! IacobusAmor 15:32, 12 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] Britannia vs. Europa

Estne opinio Britanniam non esse partem Europae Anglica aut Latina? --Alex1011 19:28, 15 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

  Bene mones. Emendavi. Doops 20:08, 15 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] None

Home Page I am really excited! Very useful. It very impressive. :-)

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