Disputatio:Suecia - Vicipaedia

# Disputatio:Suecia

### E Vicipaedia

## [recensere] Göran Persson

(see Georgius Persson)

I mailed the goverment secretariat and asked them for the latin form of the name for en:Göran Persson, here is the answer: (in translation), "Prime minister Göran Persson does not normally use the latin form of his name. But with a little help from the librarians here we found out that the latin form of his name is Georgius, (farmer)." // Solkoll 17:54 sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

  Congratulations on having such a helpful government! I doubt we could get much of an answer to that kind of question in the US (though I suppose George is a bit more obvious than Göran ;) ) -Iustinus
    If you need anymore help with the Latin equivalents of Swedish names, I can help you, since Swedish is my native tongue, and I have studied Latin. Philippus 22:50 ian 5, 2005 (UTC)

## [recensere] Regio (vulgo Land, Landskap)

Angermannia, Sudermannia, Westrogothia et cetera neque comitates neque provinciae sunt, sed regiones.
"Comitatus" est territorium comitis (suecice: grevskap; germanice: grafschaft; anglice: county).
"Provincia" est pars rei publicae hodierna (suetice: län; germanice: regierungsbezirk; anglice: administrative province), sub curam potestatemque satrapis vel praefecti (suetice: landshövding).
"Regio" est vocabulum, quod antiquam divisionem Sueciae significat (suetice: landskap; germanice: Land).
Limites provinciarum et limites regionum non iidem sunt. Sermo quotidianus saepissime "Landskap" (regio) quam "Län" (provincia) utitur.

- Vocabula, quae divisiones Sueciae significant:
  - Landskap - regio (peior provincia).
  - Län - provincia (peior praefectura).
  - Härad - praefectura, vel territorium.
  - Stad - urbs.
  - Församling (pastorat) - paroecia.
  - Socken - curia (peior paroecia).
  - By - pagus, vicus, viculus.

Haec vocabula in orationibus et dissertationibus academicis seculo xvii-xiii utebantur. Sicut Jacobus Chronander, Oratio amplissimae regionis Westrogothiae descriptionem, Aboae 1646, et Andreas Tidstroem (respondens), Dissertationis academicae de Mariaestadio Vestrogothiae urbe, cum vicina Mariaeholmia dynastica sede provinciae Skaraborgensis pars prior, Holmiae 1748. Brynolphus 15:54, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] "Provincias" - what is the use of a list of red links with questionable latin names?

I think it is better to use the old medieval divisions. I can also discuss the issue in Swedish, but writing in Latin is just too difficult. /Petrus Kuiper 15:13, 9 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

  To answer your question: not much use. It is useful to create a set of pages representing administrative divisions, and to check the names (if possible) and footnote them; which would probably also lead you to improve this present list.
  Consider carefully the choice between medieval and modern; Vicipaedia does deal with modern subjects, so the modern divisions could be useful perhaps. Maybe others will comment on this question. After that, I suggest you go right ahead! Andrew Dalby
    The medieval divisions are still wellknown in Sweden. They are also useful when dealing with modern subjects. One would only need the newer divisions when treating matters of their politics or administration, stuff that is not likely to be notable internationally. I think I will put the list somewhere, maybe on this discussion page. There is no hurry - next week. /Petrus Kuiper 23:10, 9 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
      Vicipaedia needs both the historical divisions and the "modern" ones (the latter ones has been in use since 1634). The historical division is used in everyday talk and is usually the basis for regional identities, but the modern one is used in administrative and political matters, such as elections, health care, etc. One can't do with just one of the divisions. See e.g. Finnia. It's more a matter om where to put the lists and making the red links blue. The latin names of the provinces (sw: län) are mostly taken from latin litteratur (dissertations) of the 18th Century.Brynolphus 18:05, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
        I no longer agree with myself (above) that the list is "not much use". For some reason I assumed it had been there for a long time without leading to the creation of any pages. In fact, I now see, it's quite new, and may well lead to the creation of pages: as such it is indeed of use. One has to start somewhere. Andrew Dalby 18:18, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
          I still feel that the internal politics of these bodies is not internationally notable. Even nationally it is hardly notable. If landsting elections would be held separately, few people would take the trouble to vote (like in the church elections). Also, there are plans for radical overhaul of these administrative divisions, splitting some, merging others. Few swedish people care. I am going to move these ugly red links down the page, out of sight. /Petrus Kuiper 19:48, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
            It is undesirable that so much of the total content of our articles about countries (such as Suecia) consists of lists. We know why, of course; it's easier to write lists than text, and lists are, at least, a start.
            However, a good encyclopaedic article about a country -- in whatever language -- ought to include (or be linked to) a list of its current administrative divisions. Articles about towns and smaller districts ought to mention the administrative divisions they belong to. Never mind the internal politics; any such links will help some readers to find what they're looking for. I agree completely with the point above that "it's more a matter of where to put the lists and making the red links blue". Andrew Dalby 09:26, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I would like to collapse the sub-lists (the lists of city names), just writing them on the same line as the region. Would not that improve the layout a bit? /Petrus Kuiper 18:00, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, it sounds like a good idea. Try it and see how it looks. Andrew Dalby 18:06, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
    I did it down to Småland. In order to make it work, I had to remove the Swedish names. I think it is more fun without a translation after almost every word. I had also removed empty sections, and I cut down on the hierarchy-structure. /Petrus Kuiper 23:12, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
      Great. There should be no need for the Swedish names, because you should be able to click on the bluelink and find out all about the place including that little detail! As long as it is a bluelink ... Andrew Dalby 09:01, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
        In principle, the huge landscape/city list could now be removed from this article. I split it into three separate articles: Gothia, Sueonia, and Nordlandia. Someone just needs to write a latin sentence pointing the reader in the right direction. /Petrus Kuiper 14:21, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
          I think maybe Suecia and Finnia should have the same layout in Geographia sections, since the sections are really quite different and I suppose we should have a common standard across the whole of Vicipaedia. Maybe Finnia is a bit too enigmatic with all of its links to other lists, wheaeas Suecia shouldn't really just be a page of lists. --Harrissimo 14:37, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
            I agree with Petrus Kuiper that the lists of landscapes (regiones) could, or rather should, be remowed to the three parts, and as a consequence the cities (or most of them) to the regions. The sections should rather be made up of text. Brynolphus 21:22, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

## [recensere] "Svecia est omnis divisa in partes tres."

Would not that be a nice opening sentence in the Geographia? :) I just have a problem with the names. Gothia, of course. But what to call Svealand? Norrland might be someting lika "pars septentrionalis". I looked at maps, but Svealand comes out as Svecia all the time. "Svecia propria" maybe? /Petrus Kuiper 11:54, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

PS: I found a map "Nordlandia". The subtitle explains it as "pars septentrionalis Sveciae". /PK

PPS: And here is "Sueonia", pars meridionalis. Solved! /Petrus Kuiper 12:12, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

  I think Gothia, Sueonia, Nordlandia is OK. These were all used during the xviith century, though the spelling could vary (e.g. Gottia, Norlandia). Svealand were othen given as Suecia propria (cf. Finnia propria (Egentliga Finland) in Finland). A good place to look for latin forms of swedish and finnish placenamns is Michael Wexionius, Epitome descriptionis Sueciae, Gothiae, Fenningiae, et subjectarum provinciarum, Aboae 1650. Brynolphus 21:01, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
    Looks like a nice book. I wish there was an online version, but I can't find one. Andrew Dalby 12:15, 14 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Receptum de "http://la.wikipedia.org../../../s/u/e/Disputatio%7ESuecia_6bb5.html"

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